Episode Summary

Today on the MTB Podcast, Jeff interviews our friend Neko Mulally! They discuss all of the details on his new World Cup program, and they also go for a deep dive on the race bikes that Neko designed himself, welded in the U.S. by legendary frame builder Frank the Welder. You won't want to miss this one! Tune in!

Below is a transcription of the audio from the podcast. It may contain typos...

00:00.00
jsc175
Ladies and gentlemen you are listening to the Mtv Podcast episode 91 presented and hosted by worldwide cyclery this is Jeff and this is going to be a bit of a different episode as normal. It's just going to be. Me hosting and interviewing my good friend Nico Malaley who's a professional downhill world cup racer with over 10 seasons. Actually what is it Nico 12 seasons.

00:21.81
neko
Um, the ah season was my twelfth season.

00:25.70
jsc175
Yeah, nice so twelve twelve world cup downholl racing seasons which is incredible. We're going to talk to niko about this unique program. He's got going for his race season this year which is now he's actually designed his own bike and having it made in the us and he's going to be racing that this year. So we're going to pick his brain on everything from suspension platforms high-pivot suspension anything that could potentially be of use to kind of the common mountain biker that a ah world cup racer could kind of hopefully demystify and kind of add context to. And yeah, all about his bike all about mountain bikes and all sorts of various stuff like that. So it should be a very interesting and entertaining episode so without further ado nico how's it going.

01:08.17
neko
Great yeah stokke to be on this podcast with you Jeff we've known each other since we were racing as juniors so it's cool to make it to this point and be able to talk about stuff like this.

01:22.39
jsc175
Yeah, absolutely man. Yeah, we've we've I can't even remember I feel like we've known each other since we were children which I guess we have makes makes me feel old when I think back about when we were racing as Juniors together and all that stuff.

01:37.12
neko
Doesn't seem that long ago.

01:40.35
jsc175
Yeah, true that is true. So let's talk about your program this year so traditionally so what I guess for some context here, you've been on tell me if I'm right here so was specialized. You were on specialized then Trek then y t then intense is that right? or Scott I forgot Scott.

02:00.90
neko
Yeah, yeah, so the first team I was on was specialized team america which was a national team I raced with Kyle straight Cody Warren and that was when I was 16 it was I was before I was old enough to Race World cups so I did all the us national races crank workss whistler sea otter like the big races that you can do outside of a world cup and then when I was old enough to ride world cups I got onto trekworld racing team and raced with them for the first five years of my career then I raced for Scott for 2 years and then I raced for Yt for 2 years and then I raced for intense for the past three years

02:48.32
jsc175
Yeah, rad So all throughout that time. It's you pretty much just doing all of the elite level world cup downhill racing right? How come you never dabbled in any endural world series stuff.

02:59.90
neko
Yeah I've I've only done world cups and then national downhill races throughout my career I'd love to race in ews. It's just it's difficult to be racing at the top level in both and you see some guys that can cross like Ed Masters can do both which is super impressive. But there's definitely a learning curve to the ews and it takes a pretty big commitment to training the training I think is very different downhill is really short and intense. It's um, a lot of sprint workouts heavy weight lifting where in duro you have to be on the bike. For 8 hours a day a lot of climbing and then managing long efforts within that. So. It's like the the training for downhill would kind of be compromised if you were training for ews and if you just took a downhill rider I don't think you would be able to. Do the full day of ews riding. So yeah I just really have not wanted to bite off more than I could chew and if I want if I want to go if I'm going to go do it I would like to be prepared so it's definitely on my list. There's there's the 2 in the us this year I'm not sure if I'll have. Um, the time to to really get ready for those they're they're like right before the two weeks before world champs. That's the other thing is like there's so many important races on my calendar that to to take on a new project getting ready to go do an ews two week. Two weeks before world champs or at any year before important race that your your focus of the whole year is on. It's um, it's just taken away potentially from that. So. It's that's been the the difficult thing to do both series but man it's all my bucket list I love endur a riding and I. Bradden and duro bike more than a downhill like most most downhill riders do for training so it would be cool to race one I watched some of the videos some the headcams the tracks that have minute long uphills in the stage I'm not into that if they were all just tight tech. Ah, gravity- orientented Bike skill I would love it. But the climbing not even the climb to the stages. But the the climbing in in the race. Um man that looks brutal. Those guys are. I think it's underestimated how fit those guys are there some of the fittest athletes to be able to put themselves through an effort like that and then ride some of the most technical trails in the world. It would be like racing uphill for 2 minutes and then dropping into valdesole world cup track.

05:52.21
neko
On a bike that has a lot less travel and capability that would be pretty gnarly so that's what those dudes do every weekend so they there like people have this person they think ews is for washed up downhill riders or it's like less. Ah, dangerous and gnarly I think it's probably more you're right? It probably has but I Ah, ah honestly I think um ews is is actually gnarlier than downhill the stuff that they're doing on those bikes is more technical.

06:12.45
jsc175
I Think that ship is sailed but I think people did think that before really? ah.

06:31.66
neko
And they're out there all day racing for thirty forty minutes when we're racing for 3 minutes so and they get to see the trail once and we get to walk it 4 times and practice it for four days like it's it's just a different thing.

06:42.94
jsc175
Yeah, it's crazy.

06:49.52
jsc175
Yeah, yeah, Absolutely yeah I was always impressed to see some guys like Ed Masters like you mentioned could kind of mix into both and do well at both because typically the Downhi racers that have completely you know when they do in Duro they just switch. They just completely abandon downhill and only do Enduro So It makes sense when you talk about the difference in. Sport and the training and all of that. So Yeah I Guess it's It's smart of you to stay focused and not bot off more than you can chew there because ews does look like quite the challenge.

07:17.46
neko
For sure.

07:22.47
jsc175
So this year you've got something totally unusual I think the last time on the podcast I said it was the first time anyone's ever done. This is as in like the racer designing their own bike is was I right has anyone ever done this or are you the first person to do this that you know of.

07:39.85
neko
Well, um I think racers a lot of times have a big say in it. But there's always an engineer that's working on it for them. The recent example of someone who's done. This is my friend isaac livesen. He. Is from Norway and lives in Knoxville Tennessee he goes to ut and he designed and welded his own frame out of steel and went and raced the world cup in Leggee where he qualified and finished thirty eighth and then the world cup in snowshoe he qualified and tried to backflip the finish line jump which was the worst. Finish line jump to ever backlip. It was such like a flat wedge takeoff crashed but almost almost got it around so isaac has he did everything he designed it welt it welded it built it like everything himself which was pretty cool but that was like a very homemade privateerer. Effort the athertons have their brand with atherton bikes where they gave feedback to Dave Weagle who they're using the Dw platform who designed them the bike that he thought they would like based on their feedback. So say my project is somewhat.

08:43.53
jsc175
Are.

08:56.25
neko
Different to both where maybe in between where like I found a custom frame builder Frank the welder to make my frames for me but I did all the design and chose all the kinematic and the layout and everything myself and then leaned on a manual. Ah, guy who does manufacturing to build the bike to be as I intended to use it.

09:22.77
jsc175
Yeah, that's cool. Well that makes sense so I was I was semi right on that I guess some other people have done something similar but maybe not exactly the same but it is a really cool and unique take because obviously the traditional way is you know these racers get sponsored by a brand on their team and. That's that's what they're given right? and I mean they obviously like you said they can provide feedback and help modify that bike but traditionally they're not the actual people designing the whole thing through and through like you are so yeah, that's that's going to be an interesting project to take on this year which is just really cool and interesting and. It's rad to see when you you know, talked about this when you announced it earlier I guess would be like earlier in the month Jan one um yeah people were stoked I think you were you surprised at the feedback. It seemed like people were just grinning ear to ear myself included because it just seems like a really cool idea and I think people were also i. Again, myself included happy to see you doing it because you're kind of the person that it really makes sense for with how much of a bike nerd. You are and how into this stuff that you are. It's like the perfect fit for you and who you are as a racer and kind of your passions and hobbies. So yeah, what did you think were you were you surprised by the feedback you got in that first week you announced this project.

10:31.35
neko
Yeah I was definitely surprised how how well it was received I thought it would be a cool thing like I have a pretty good gauge on the industry and what type of things go well and what type like how something would be received and I guess. I I plan to announce it on January first because it's the first day of new contract season. It was also a weekend and a holiday where all the big teams that were going to do announcements were probably not going to be ready to go on January first so I would have my own day where I wouldn't be the same as. Canyon and Santa Cruz and the other ones that we're announcing and I thought doing it on the holiday would be good because people would be at home maybe sitting sitting around um on their day off and be able to take a look at my post and and look at some of the pictures about it and. See what was going on so I thought it was good timing. Um I joked with some other people who complimented me from bike brands that I had my whole marketing team on it me and Logan did the whole thing ourself which I was super proud of like we Logan made all the videos and um took the photos and.

11:39.94
jsc175
Ah.

11:47.27
neko
Um, like he he doesn't really have it. It kind of fits along with our whole theme where we just bought a video camera during the pandemic when races were canceled and started filming stuff because I I thought you know. Why not like let's just figure it like people people can figure it out. It's just a tool if you have the vision to do it like we can figure out how to use it and we ended up improving our videos over the every couple weeks we would put them out and led us to this position to be able to make this. Video series about the bikes and um, do the release ourself and it was just cool that we did it all in-house diy sort of and I think it fits very well with the program but also like you said I think it was fitting for me to do I'm really into it and um. Feel like I at least for myself but like that's the cool thing I'm not designing a bike for other people or saying what you should do. It's ah it's for me so I get the final say on my bike and um, the decision is how to make it work best for me racing it. So to talk about that I I feel like I'm well qualified based on the past twelve years of racing with all these teams and working with different engineers and learning what worked and what didn't for me and I feel like I'm pretty knowledgeable because I've done the research and I see what other. Brands are doing I watch what works for for other teams racing and I felt like speaking about this, it was something I was passionate about and I was pretty knowledgeable about so I think it was a good fit and if so I said before if somebody else was doing it I would. Love to follow along and watch it and it's just very interesting. So for me to be able to do. It is something that I'm really proud of.

13:45.22
jsc175
Yeah that's cool man I mean I'm I'm excited as ever to see how the season pans out and I've always you know I've I've complimented you before on just how wellpoke you are in something as simple as your Instagram post like even when you made that post about the signature gloves you made with hand up and all the little different. Tweaks and everything and then just the random times when you have posted on Instagram in the past and wrote in these nice long throw captions about bike parts and your thoughts on them I've just liked it because I I think you I think you do something in a way the way you speak and talk about stuff. Is you really you just. Have a good way of explaining things and especially explaining it to your particular use case and making it clear that it's your use case and your opinion and here's why which I I think is kind of ah it's hard. A lot of a lot of people who are professional mountain bike reviewers are are not always the best at. You know explaining and in such a manner. But yeah I've always admired how you do that. So I'm excited to see you know how this pans out this year how you're going to document it on your Youtube and Instagram and all that sort of stuff so that's going to be cool I'm I'm excited and and you actually just so just recently made an Instagram post talking. A little bit about the difference between the 2 bike designs that you have so you had yeah so tell me about that so you've got 2 designs that you're testing back to back is the only difference the the high pivot or is there more than that.

15:06.95
neko
Yeah, so I have these two frames. Um, and and really the only difference that I wanted to make was the moving the main pivot up so one is ah considered a high pivot. It's it's a very low version of a highpivot. And 1 is a standard pivot height bike and to have an apples to apples comparison I kept everything equal except for moving the main pivot up the front triangles are the same aside from that one pivot location. The yeah, the chain stay the. Seats stay. It's all the same the main pivot yoke that the either pulley mounts to is different to be able to hold the either pulley. But other than that everything's the same I uses a longer rocker link to try to keep the kinematic as similar as possible. 1 thing that. Average person might not realize is that when you move these pivots even a millimeter it changes the leverage that's on the entire suspension system. So the way that it pushes the shock is going to be different based on how the axle is pulling on the. Suspension system and moving any of the points it changes everything so when I moved that pivot up I tried to try to keep everything all the numbers all the outputs as close as possible. For an applesapps comparison so that I could only change the variable of axle path and pedal kick which is related to the either pulley with everything else being equal. So I all I had to do was um, change the rocker link to a longer rocker link to keep that all the same. Um, but I think for a high-pivot to standard pivothe bike. It's probably the closest that I've seen most times when a brand is coming out with a new bike and and even in my case like I rode the first bike and there's definitely a lot of things that we could have improved on. Um, even like hardware um that we made it very simple for the first frame and I would have liked to improve that when I ordered the second frame but I didn't want to have anything that was oh, it's better just because we used better bolts or whatever it was um. And I think that most brands that have come out with a high pivot bike. It's ah it's the snapshot of where they are in their development process and a lot of other things may be better than their last bike aside from the high pivot. So of course the new bike's going to be better. They've learned took everything they've learned and put it into that. Um.

17:58.14
neko
And I just wanted this to be as few variables as possible when I was testing these two frames back to back.

18:06.00
jsc175
Yeah that's cool I mean that's a much more scientific approach to it than what? Ah a typical bike brand would do because they're not necessarily trying to do a scientific test between 2 different suspension designs. They're just trying to make better bikes and. Sell different bikes as they as they evolve everything and refine. All the various different things. So yeah, that's that's really cool I like that I like that scientific take on the testing there. So what was what were the results you kind of sum those up in an Instagram post but what were the results of riding those 2 bikes back to back. The. You know with as many variables as possible exactly the same aside from that pivot location. What were kind of your takeaways on how each one of them performed compared to the other.

18:46.81
neko
Yeah, so they both had areas where they excelled and areas where I guess not that they didn't excel but that one bike was better than the other and honestly I'm not really that. Surprised by the results. The high pivot was really nice in rough straight lines um any the the rougher it was the better for that bike it. It made terrain that was uncomfortable to ride through feel more comfortable. Made you feel more planted and safe in those situations. Um the low pivot bike felt like it generated speed quicker as far as pumping obviously peddling. There's more efficiency there which isn't that much of a consideration in a downhill bike. But. Whenever you wanted to maintain speed or generate speed pump into a berm a backside of a jump even just cornering in general carrying speed out of turns the low pivot felt like it did that better. It felt like it was a more efficient bike so it was really course dependent. And the 2 of my bikes are not that drastically different I'd say the low pivot is as high of a low pivot as I could reasonably get and the high pivot is as low of a high pivot as I could fit a 14 Tooth Idler Pulley to the chain ring. So. The 2 bikes are pretty close so I expected that the results wouldn't be drastically different I would say I could race either 1 it's just yeah, dependent on the situation and so in my testing process I tried to ride a variety of different tracks I've got. Windrop that has ten good downhill tracks on it that are all a little different. We have a pretty good test track at Kanuga and I wrote it when I was home for Christmas in Pennsylvania as well on one of the tracks that I grew up riding on at Mount Penn so I wrote it. And it's wintertime on the East Coast so there isn't that many places you can take a downhill bike to ride but I did try to ride it on as very ah as much of a very ah variant of terrain as I could and my my testing process was to do. 2 warm up runs 2 runs on one bike 2 runs on the other 2 runs on one bike 2 runs on the other so timing all the runs not really timing the warm up runs. But um, timing all the runs and and making those swaps that way a lot of times.

21:35.98
neko
I find especially if I'm riding a track that I haven't ridden in a while I get faster as the day goes on so I don't want to just be fastest on my last run and all I learned is that I learned the trail and I got faster every time I went down it. That's not really helping me learn anything about the bike. So being able to swap back and back and back and back a lot of times I take the last two runs on each bike. The first 2 are kind of getting used to it and then the second set are more comparable. So I I just try to get as many data points as I could as many different days doing this test process and sometimes I'd start on one bike sometimes I'd start on the other mainly to do with which one I finished on last time so I didn't have to take it apart and swap them. Um, that way I could just get as. Like I said as many data points as I could and not really to my surprise they were never more than a second a second and a half off each other and and the times when the high pivot was better was fast straight um off the brakes. Just. Boeing down rocks and it it wasn't really that much faster. It was a little bit in certain times but I would say that one when it was faster. It was less of an advantage as like the high the low pivot would be yeah for sure a little rougher to ride noticeably through those sections. But. Pretty close I would say within a second on those times when the high pivot was faster and then the the trails that had more tight corners spots where you had to carry speed out of a corner where the bike being nimble was important the low pivot design felt like it was faster through there and just really. Accelerated and you could pump into a turn and and carry speed out of it and and in section the tighter tracks sometimes that bike would be a second a second and a half faster than the high pivot. So um, and for me like timing is the. I'm racing so whatever. The clock says is going to be the determining factor and it's so 1 thing that's a consistent gauge to measure it by but I did take into consideration like I I wrote down my notes on how they felt and the the feel is that um. Yeah, the high-pivot definitely takes the edge off. It's a more stable bike to ride. But it's not as easy to throw around. It's not as nimble so I don't know most world cup tracks you are on the edge of like you want that extra stability and comfort. They're super fast. They're.

24:21.40
neko
You're on the the edge of the limit of how fast you can go. So. It's nice to have somewhat of a comfort feeling but you're also racing so you want to be taking into consideration a bike that's going to be faster. Um I don't know for that for the average person to to kind of compare it like. You could do a lot of things to make your bike feel more comfortable that aren't necessarily going to be faster. You could run softer suspension less tire pressure. Um a lot of people have said that the ebike feels stable because it's so heavy and these are all things that like yeah. They make a comfortable feeling but when you're racing they might not be the fastest thing to wear like a bike that maybe feels like it's more twitchy or less stable. Um like like in any racing sport the the fastest setup might not be the easiest ride. So there's the clock does a good job of sorting that out and and telling you which was the best. So so far in my in my testing that's kind of where I've got to and yeah I think for for my skill set. I could use a bike that turns faster I'm pretty good at riding through straight lines fast like over the years I'd say that's one of the things that I'm best at is like mobbing down fast straightaways and running stuff over but being agile and getting out of corners quick. Is an area where I feel like I could improve so in that's taking out in consideration. Maybe for me racing the low pivot is going to be the way to go? Um, but I've got 2 races coming up in Costa Rica in 1 of them's the second week in February One's the third week the Costa Rica open and then the pan am continental championship are um, 2 chances I'm gonna have I'm gonna take both bikes get them on a race track that there's a lot that you can learn when you're on a race track and compare them more through through that situation and and see how they go but. Yeah, so far. Those are some of the things that I've felt and and learned.

26:35.12
jsc175
Yeah, that is. It's pretty interesting but you're right I mean it's it's kind of what you hear up by high pivot is supposed to do. It seemed like it did that for you? Well so what's the what is the decision in terms of which one you're going to race more. Do you do you kind of foresee yourself throughout the year Racing a different bike just based on the course or do you think you'll just after a few races just totally mix one of them and only ride the other one.

27:02.88
neko
So my plan is to take what I learned from these 2 bikes and design a I don't want to call it final design but let's say a third bike that is I'll get several of these made that are a more refined version that may not be. Exactly the high pivot that I have now or exactly the standard pivot height bike I have now. But um, taking the the hopefully the the best out of each one that I've learned and going forward with that next design whenever I've tried to race a bike that was. Tailored to a track not being familiar with it outweighed the fact that the bike was maybe optimized for that course so throughout the season I'd like to be able to race the same bike that I know that I is very predictable that I know inside down. So.

27:51.92
jsc175
Nice.

28:02.80
neko
My plan is to just use this time in the off season to get myself to that point and then order a small production run of however, many frames I'll need for the season and proceed with with one design.

28:19.83
jsc175
Yeah, that makes total sense I Definitely get the the comfortability aspect I mean something that I've always tried to advise other mountain bikers on is usually what's most comfortable to you is what's going to be the most fun to ride and you know. Aside from you who's making a career out of racing most mountain bikers are just doing it for fun and if you're trying to maximize fun then typically what's comfortable is going to lead you to riding in a state of flow and having a good time and that's kind of where that debate over Common Mountain Bikers. Oh What's better flats or Clipless. It's like well what you know regardless of what's better here. What. What do you feel comfortable with because if you feel totally uncomfortable being clipped in then it's absolutely not better ever. So You know do what's Comfortable. So I Definitely kind of understand what you're thinking about there when it comes to comfortability and familiarity of that bike. So That's cool and do you think I mean given the results you've had so far with that. You know, high pivot version of your bike. Do You think you'd ever bother testing an even higher pivot.

29:21.16
neko
Well I've written the common saw um and the trek. The track is also a higher pivot I'd say every bike is a higher pivot than my high pivot and whenever you make when you're making a bike design when you make a certain I'd say. Each kinematic point whether it's the the breaking characteristic the axle path the pedal kick the leverage ratio say they're all dials when you turn 1 dial up a lot. It compromises the other ones so and and.

29:55.27
jsc175
Business.

29:55.34
neko
You can do things like adding gadgets to the bike say a floating break mount or I mean an either pulley is one the high pivot would be really difficult to ride and work with the drive train without an either pulley um to to mount to to direct the chain line. So. The more those things that you add the more you can kind of decouple certain characteristics to where normally axle path and pedal kick are directly related with an either pulley. You can kind of fine tune that and separate it the the you know the chain ring. Is mounted to the center of the it's it's off of measured off the center of the bottom bracket so that you can't really put that in any different place whereas with an either pulley you can put that kind of wherever you want in the same with a floating break. You can it doesn't have to be mounted to. Whatever link is near the axle. It can be mounted off of a different point to get the breaking characteristic you want, but the more of those things you add to the bike the the more complicated it gets and I think as simple of a design as you can you can use. Give you the less the least headache the least things that could go wrong like when racing the least things that could go wrong. Um, so that's definitely a consideration of mine is like balancing performance with simplicity and the 2 are pretty opposite things. So. It's ah it's a difficult balance but I guess what I was getting back to is that yes I've ridden a few other bikes that are higher pivot than mine and the tradeoff is um, they make some pretty some pretty drastic compromises. They feel much less nimble the higher pivot you get the bike grows as it goes to the travel. And um, they do they do feel like monster trucks when you go through Rock Gardens a common saw is a pretty high single pivot design and it's very confidence inspiring to ride like you get on that bike and you feel like you can run over anything. Um. If you get out of control. You know you're going to get back under control. But the tradeoff is that it's not very agile. The bike isn't nimble. It doesn't cornergrate. Um, it feels heavy to to kind of move around. Um. And and most high-pivot designs have a higher anti-rise which is the breaking number so that suspension loads the shock as you apply the brake and that makes the shock or the the rear end feel stiffer and a lot of downhill tracks are very steep where you're breaking.

32:45.63
neko
Most of the time. Even even when you're even the best riders in the world are are slightly dragging the brake trail breaking through a lot of the course and if that influence on the suspension system makes your shock feel stiffer. It. It loads the spring then. Compromises the way the bike works and I think it's something to consider for downhill racing especially um, and and like I said the higher the pivot in general that makes the breaking characteristic feel stiffer so that was something that was really important to me. That I wanted to try to avoid I prefer the bikes with a lower anti-rise number where the breaking feels more active and open so I don't think I would go for a higher pivot based on the ones that I've written I thought mine was a more neutral design that was taking the advantages of. High pivot design a fairly rearward axle path and decoupling the pedal kick from axlepath having a bike with my either pulley placement has virtually no pedal kick in like the gear you would normally I measured. All the bikes equally in the 14 twoth 3 or cog which is most of the time when I'm riding in when nom on diss descends whether you're on a trail bike or a downhill bike. That's a good average gear to measure it and and the high pivot bike has ° of pedal kick which. I would be shocked if anyone could notice the difference between one point, five and zero. So. It's very low. Um and that makes the bike feel pretty smooth. So I felt like my my design was taking advantage of the advantages of a high pivot but without. As many of the compromises. So maybe it doesn't have those superpowers but it also doesn't have the compromises that come with them so I don't think I want to go higher than my bike but that's that's based on what I've learned so far.

34:55.96
jsc175
Yeah, so do you think? so all the all the things that you've noticed the sort of differences in bike feel and handling when you go high-pivot does that become less noticeable and less relevant as bikes get less travel right? So downhill bike is kind of a. Unique use case because it has eight inches of travel. But if you take if you were doing the same type of testing on say a six inch travel bike or even a four inch travel bike would you would there be less sort of large differences in the way you'd notice a high pivot design versus a standard pivot design.

35:29.87
neko
Um, that would be hard to answer I've I've definitely ridden a few of them and they they do have a noticeable difference I would say in proportion to the amount of travel they have um like the difference between a downhill bike and any 1 60 mil travel bike. They're going to feel different they're and and not just because of their pivot location but just the the intended use of the bike a downhill bike is optimized for only going downhill whereas ah any bike that has to climb has a lot of other things to consider. But in saying that I think that the differences would be proportionally the same. You would see the same benefits to a a a lesser degree if you were using the same design on a shorter travel bike.

36:24.72
jsc175
Yeah, that's cool. So if if there's kind of the you know, average mountain biker out there and considering a new endural bike or Trail Bike do you think that a high pivot would. Make more sense for someone one of these riders that says hey you know I'm not really, ah, a poppy jumpy pumpy type of guy I'm I'm pretty planted and stable and just want the bike to feel comfortable in rough terrain. Do you think if like that's sort of their preferences and what they're going for. They might want to consider a high pivot. Versus on the other hand if you have a rider who's kind of the opposite. It's like well you know I'm fine going in a straight line and I really want my bike to feel active and agile and playful and and really energetic when I pump it would they want to? maybe then. Make sure they kind of steer their brain towards a non-hypivot design because it does seem like so many more brands were introducing high pivott designs for trail and and duro bikes that people are starting to question. Oh is this one way better than the other and the thing is like with most things in mountain biking. Well, it's not necessarily better. It's just different and then you kind of need to know because it's different.

37:29.30
neko
He.

37:32.49
jsc175
Why might you want it and why might you not want it based on your preferences and what you want out of the bike does that make sense.

37:37.80
neko
Yeah, absolutely I mean I think these bikes it's hard to say better or worse. It has a different intended application. It has um, whoever was designing. It had a different goal in mind of what he wanted the bike to do so yes, the high pivots do some things.

37:47.47
jsc175
Um.

37:57.12
neko
Amazingly and they there's other situations where like I said the lower pivot bikes excel so depending on what each person what type of train they ride what type of rider they are what. What they're if they're planning to race if they're planning to ride recreate recreationally there's there's everybody's situation is different I wouldn't say any 2 people have the same exact spec list of what they're looking for out of their bike so in my opinion. Um, you can't put every high pivot in the same bucket either a lot of them are different. You can just just as you can tune every every low pivot bike like high pivots are a fairly I wouldn't say they're new because they've like Canfield had one twenty years ago but for

38:33.15
jsc175
Ah.

38:48.96
neko
The current trail and Enduro Market they're they're pretty, um, they're pretty hot item right now I'd say um, but just as you can't put every one of these high pivot bikes in the same bucket. You couldn't put every standard pivot height bike in the same.

38:49.20
jsc175
Yeah.

39:06.87
neko
Bucket either. They're they're all different and based on the design and what the intended use was that their designer had um, but in general I would say what you will feel out of a high pivot and this is just a generalize it would be that yeah they will.

39:08.75
jsc175
Yeah, that's very true.

39:24.77
neko
Feel more comfortable and plan it on the trail they will um I guess dumb down the trail like if there's sections that feel like they're really rough or you feel on the edge of your stability level. These bikes will make that feel. Um, just easier to ride and and like you are in more control when you're going through those sections. Um, So if if that's if that's the type of stuff that you like if you like riding rough. Um they they make Square Edge bumps feel a lot nicer. And if you ride a lot of that stuff then then these bikes can have like a really nice feel going through that type of terrain I would say that if you're if you're more into I don't know Jib type riding where you like to really like slash the bike in tight Turns. Um. Play play with the bike a lot pop off of stuff jumping, especially these bikes kind of feel like they're very dead. Um, they're not as playful and I mean that's the like if you're if you're racing if you're going fast. That's what you want you want the bike to feel Dead. You want it to make the trail feel numb. But if you're riding and riding for fun and want to really push on the bike and get it to pop out of turns get it to jump off stuff bikes like this. And like I said not every high pivot bike is like that. But in general the advantages are that they they dumb down the trail and they make it feel more comfortable for you to ride.

41:04.69
jsc175
Yeah, cool I Love it man this this has turned into a lot of high pivot talk. But I think that's really useful because I feel like a lot of the questions that you know we're fielding these days and even just myself personally people are just always going Highpi Ipivo Ipi And. There's just a lot to it and then there's a lot to explain and talk about and it's cool to to talk to you about it who's obviously has a ton of knowledge and experience and also done some really intricate testing of your own bikes that yeah high pivot versus regular. So That's awesome. Well moving on from just high pivot stuff. What do you.? What? what has been kind of the most surprising thing that you've found while making your frames.

41:45.17
neko
Yeah, that's interesting. Um I can't say that there's 1 big surprise that I wasn't expecting and and this was an amazing discovery. Um, but I think looking back on it sitting here now having. Ridden both of my bikes and seen the idea come to life is that the bikes actually worked like I I thought it would be a few iterations of trial and error to get the bikes to work I thought my kinematic was good but like anything you can have a great design in theory. Or my my file on my computer looks like it will work. But it's a whole different thing to ride it down the trail and it work in a real life situation and from the first try like I owe a lot to Frank because he chose all the tubing he he. He did all the welds and knew where to put gussets on the bike to make it stronger. Um and a big thing too to consider with bikes and and Mountain Bike chassis is the flex like for sure the stiffest one isn't better and for sure the flexiious one isn't better. There's a sweet spot. And I'd say depending on each person that feel might be different because the rider is a big variable your weight your speed the type of terrain you're riding it on. Um and I told Frank who I like he's watched me race. Um, he knows what my intended use is and he chose this material. It's sixty sixty one aluminum the most common material used for mountain bikes maybe other than maybe now carbon is but for a long time that was the most common material used um and he chose the wall thicknesses where to put gussets.

43:34.10
jsc175
And.

43:38.50
neko
Ah, the hardware, the bearings. All those things that I was like I don't really care about it other than I want it to work like this is my kidtomatic This is where I want all my suspension points and this is where I want my geometry and the rest I Just don't want to even think about like I want to make sure that. It just doesn't give me any headache I don't want to be bummed on my design because we had the wrong Bolt or the wrong bearing like I just wanted to work as intended and Frank made that happen and it is a very like everything the whole bike just works great. Um.

44:00.64
jsc175
50

44:16.96
neko
I Couldn't say if it's too flexi or too stiff like if somebody was like okay here's the first one benchmark should we go stiffer or flexer.. Where would you go? It's really hard for me to say like I think it's I I think I could raise the one that I have and it's It's just right? um. There's There's no situation when I come into a loaded turn I'm like man this thing is really flexing in this turn and there's also no situation where I'm in rough chattery terrain where I think the bike feels rigid. So I think you got it really good with that. But yeah I Guess the biggest surprise is like sometimes I'm riding through sections of trail. Where I'm like damn this bike works really good like surely this couldn't have been this easy like I thought it would how how could I design this bike on the first try and it worked so good. It was kind of eye openingening to me like I I really thought it would take. Ah, few iterations to to do it and and for sure there's stuff that I can improve but I could race the one I have now and I feel super comfortable on it. So Yeah I I don't know I think there's some.

45:23.50
jsc175
Yeah, that's cool. So there was just less ah less elusive alchemy to the whole design process than you may have anticipated initially.

45:33.50
neko
Yeah I think there's some perception that there's there's a reason why somebody couldn't do itself or there's black magic going into these bike designs and and I don't think there's as much as as there. Is perceived to be I think for sure to to produce them on a scale where you can deliver 10000 units around the world that takes a lot of a lot of effort. Um, and for sure those guys would say oh yeah, you made 1 bike that works great good for you. So.

46:11.80
jsc175
Yeah.

46:12.17
neko
Um, yeah, but but I I mean I am am proud to have done that and I think that it I was just surprised that it worked well.

46:22.74
jsc175
Yeah, yeah, that's cool I mean I think you know talking to you about it in the early days like you you you always mention outputs right? You're kind of looking at various different things for outputs and then how a design can achieve it which I think isn't ah. What's a reality of it obviously and in a more simple manner to look at it than I think might meet the eye as someone who's new to the sport and seeing all these different frame designs and because you know imagine coming into a mountain biking as a sport as a total newbie and you see one bike and the shock goes vertically and it's. Close to the C Tube and you see another bike that is a competitive bike to it with the same sort of Geo numbers and specs and everything but the shock is up there by the top tube and it's horizontal. You'd be like well does it ride entirely different because the suspension design looks entirely different and the answer is obviously no but coming into the sport It's it's almost bewildering to see all of these different suspension platform designs and then the reality is that they all actually work really similarly to each other so I don't know I think I think the way you you looked at it right is like what you talked about earlier is just you look at the outputs and the outputs are kind of what matter and there's like different ways to achieve the design. So yeah, what would. If you if you had to explain that to someone who was just entering the sport of mountain biking and they said hey Nico you know I'm trying to buy my first mountain bike I'm new to it. Why is why are some shocks vertical some are horizontal and all these frame designs are totally different like what's what's going on here to all these bikes ride differently. What would you? How would you try and. Explain that to him and in in you know in the most clear concise way.

47:56.60
neko
Yeah,, that's that's another tough question too and and for sure if they're just getting into it like a bike that they that that they like that they can go ride as much as possible is going to be the right bike for them. But I think yeah, it is confusing. There's so many different. Layouts and you don't see it in in other industries as much but in mountain liking some days I think it's so cool that there's so many different approaches to it and that brands are different and not every bike's the same and other days I think if we could all just work in the same direction and make. Slight improvements on the same stuff we would be so much further ahead than constantly having to come with a brand new design. But I mean it's It's the it's the beauty and the downfall of of our industry I Guess um, but to explain it I guess. Every design it. It gives you outputs on what are called the kinematics of the suspension platform and the the probably the most noticeable one would be the leverage ratio which is the ratio of axl movement to shock movement and. The more leverage The bike has it makes the bike feel more active and the the shock will I guess with the same Spring. It'll be softer. So if you imagine you're trying to pry open a door and you have ah a pry bar the closer you grab it to the door. The less leverage you have the further away you you grab pull this bar the more leverage you have and the linkage system that the suspension platform goes through say the axle is what you're pulling on the the linkage system gives it. Mechanical advantage to create a different amount of leverage that's being put on the shock so bikes aren't these days that that drastically different because shocks work Best in a certain range and shock makers say our shocks work. Best. Within this window so you don't see anything that's too far off the wall especially in trail bikes in downhill Bikes. You see some more variance but the difference in that is is something that could be different across different bike. Manufactures and then the amount that it progresses which is the leverage ratio that it starts with and the leverage ratio that it ends with will be different So A bike should be a little bit more leverage in the beginning to make it feel supple to make it feel like it tracks the ground well. But then.

50:49.48
neko
Ramp up at the end of the stroke to require less leverage and more force to push the shock so that it doesn't just bottom out and that change in Leverage Ratios The progression and it's working together with the spring force which is either an air or a coil spring. That as it's compressed requires more force to to continue to progress. It. So the the leverage ratio and the spring force kind of work together and then other kinematics that are interesting to consider and. On a trail bike is very important is the Anti-squat which is when you're peddling how that affects how that chain tension affects the way that the shock is being pushed So um, well not the way it's being pushed but the effect on The. Suspension platform So a bike that has a higher Anti-squat will feel like it stiffens under pedaling and a bike that has a lower Anti-squat will feel like it bobs under pedaling and I think maybe some people have ridden bikes that have. Had both of these situations and the general consensus would be that a bike that was stiffer would be better but too much of anything isn't good if it's super stiff. It's not going to get traction if you're climbing on technical sections. Um climbing on routes and rocks you want to bike that. Still is active when you're peddling it So There's yeah I'd say different bike Manufacturers have different opinions on what is the nice number there and then another thing is the the breaking influence that Anti-rise which is kind of similar to the anti-squat. But. Under breaking What? how the suspension system is being affected and if it's a lower number. It'll be more active feeling and if it's a higher number it loads the spring so it will be a more stiffer feeling. So. These are all effects they're outputs of the linkage system and even bikes that use the same design moving the pivots even just a millimeter could change everything and some more than others. But um, general bikes that use shorter links. Have see ah see a greater change by moving these pivot locations than bikes that use longer links longer links are more consistent but they're also flex here. So There's There's tradeoff in design as Well. Um.

53:38.93
neko
And and for me I like to look at the outputs of the bike more than what suspension design they're using and you could use the same suspension design to get 2 completely different outputs or you could use 2 completely different suspension designs to get the same output. Um. Some are a more complicated complicated way of getting there and some are a more simple way of getting there. So. It's hard to say because a lot of so a lot of bike manufacturers don't publish all their suspension kinematics like they do their geometry I kind of wish they would um.

54:15.12
jsc175
Yeah, that'd be cool.

54:15.37
neko
But the information is also very overwhelming for the average writer like if you're just getting into it. You don't need to see these these graphs of shock leverage progression and anti-rising anti-squad and it's um.

54:25.27
jsc175
Very true.

54:32.80
neko
It's ah it's it's a lot of information and it's a lot of physics math equations that you don't necessarily need to take it to if you're buying your first bike. So yeah, it's it's just like I said it's a cool thing in our industry that everything's different but like. But sometimes it would be nice if we were all work in the same direction you see in a lot of other industries like motorocross bikes. They all use the same linkage design across all the manufacturers and I don't think that they really care to be different. They're just looking at. What works the best. What's the most consistent thing that we can manufacture to give the consumer the best experience and being different is not a consideration whereas in Mountain Biking it is and also the different engineers at different brands have their own opinion of. Why they think that their design is the best to use for their application. So I think that's a lot of information. Um for the average rider. But ah, don't yeah, don't don't be afraid just ah if you can.

55:38.59
jsc175
That that is that is.

55:46.48
neko
I Would encourage people to go to a demo like if you can go and test ride a bike. Um, you'll yeah you can learn so much a lot of times if if I've been testing bikes for other teams in the past.

55:50.39
jsc175
Yeah, that's what I always tell people just ride things.

56:04.13
neko
I kind of won't want to know the information before I ride it I will want to just ride it and then after learn what the differences were. It's that way you can have an honest feel on it. So yeah, if people are in the market to buy a new bike just go test ride some stuff and also you can make such a big change with. Parts and um, even a shock makes more difference. A lot of the times than the f frame and with with like with my designs I tried to push the shock as consistently as I could and then if I wanted to change from track to track I could do it with a clicker on the shock or a different shock tune and. Would say that if most bikes these days are within the working windows that the shock manufacturers provide. So if you have a preference you can get pretty much anything you want with the shock tune now with with obviously some limitations but. Yeah, you can't just ride a bike with 1 tune and bank node changes to to try to set it up for yourself and judge it off of that completely if you're if you're in tune with being able to set the bike up the way you want then you can kind of make. Any bike act in the characteristic that you're looking for.

57:26.98
jsc175
Yeah, that's cool. It's a great perspective on it that that is a ton of information to digest but I totally agree with you that riding a bike is the most important thing and I think what's what's fun about mountain biking is you can come into the sport as a novice and. Ride a few different bikes see what makes sense for your use case and preferences and what you enjoy and and let that evolve over the years as you continue to be a you know more serious mountain biker and and it's a fun sport to learn about I mean because you can go into it as a novice and just ride casually on the weekends and have a good time and then. You can take it as far as someone like you who is literally designing his own bikes and doing scientific tests to split test 1 version versus the next which is and anywhere in between which which is just it's just cool. It's just cool that there's so much depth to the sport. Um and and complexity to it. But at the same time you can also just go. You know. Buy a bike and have a great time and at the end of the day it is about having fun which is yeah, there's a lot to it. But it's it's a fun sport to learn about because there is so much depth to the whole thing. So yeah, good stuff. Do you think? So I guess this is the last question here to wrap up on. Will your frame because clearly you've expressed a lot of knowledge in this topic. Do you? You think your frame will ever come to production at some point.

58:40.47
neko
Um, it's something that is a ah dream of mine. Um I right now am focused on just trying to make this thing work as well as I can for me to race this season and refining these 2 designs that I've started with and. Going forward with that third design with everything I've learned is kind of like my tunnel vision of what I'm trying to accomplish now and you never know when you get to a world cup. You learn a lot that you could have never learned testing in the offseason. So. There may be more changes that need to be made once that happens but I would love to offer the frame for sale to people who are interested to people who are following the the whole story of this project once it's at a point that I'm proud to sell it once it's at a point where I don't think that there's more things that we need to improve on it and for sure you can't sit still with ah with any type of design like a bike from four years ago is not going to be competitive with the bikes that just came out this year. But as long as this. Point in time. There's not things on the bike that I think I still want to change that we need to improve then when we get it to that point I would love to order a small production run of frames and offer them for sale to people who are following along and I think. If they've been watching this, they probably are like-minded and can see you know, maybe maybe they're listening to everything I say and they think that's cool, but that doesn't work for me and that they're not the person that who needs to buy my frame but if they think that what I'm saying makes sense and. Would work for them then it would be awesome to see them be able to get on one and and feel what I feel and see if it works for them. So yeah, that's the long-term goal and I don't know I don't want to be stuck to a timeframe I want to make sure that it is the bike is as I want it. Before I try to go that route.

01:00:55.94
jsc175
Yeah that's cool I like it man I mean it it really does put you in a good position right? because if if you're you're designing a bike for yourself and your use case and you know once it's totally refined. You might take it to production but you're not, you're not under these. You know it's not like you have investors that are saying hey this bike needs to be ready for production by this date. So it allows you to really refine and test and and make it the way you want before you ever take it to production if you choose to do that in the future. So it puts you in a really good position which which is awesome. So that's cool. Um. Yeah, thank you Niko genuinely appreciate all your time and you know knowledge on this topic and and for those of you that are still listening. You can follow along Niko's going to document. You know all the rest of this stuff throughout the season on his Youtube channel and his Instagram you can also hit http://worldwidecyclary.com/neko. To learn more about Neko and his project and we're going to try and keep that page up to date with everything that's going on and Neko’s race results and I don't know anything else Neko any any final words or any other areas that people can follow along with this project.

01:01:59.85
Neko
Um, yeah, as far as following along I try to keep people up to date on on my social media Instagram primarily and we've been putting out this video series on Youtube where a goal is to make 12 videos that we just kind of planned out that would. Cover the races that I'll be doing the offseason testing and just follow along as to how the whole project is progressing. So yeah, you can follow things that way and um, yeah I guess for everybody that's kind of listening to this and and hoping to take away some information. The one message i. Hope I was clear enough to explain is that everybody's going to have a ah different application. What they're looking to get their bike to work for and this I hope that they can take what I said and think about what type of trails what type of riding they do and just. Use it as some education to bank their next bike purchase or bike setup or or whatever it is. They're trying to do in their own. Best interests. You can't say the same thing is going to work for everyone. So um, one thing I would encourage people to do is to try to. Be as consistent as you can with what you are what you can control little things like tire pressure checking your shock pressure or sag whatever it is before you ride getting your suspension serviced making sure your bikes shifting properly and. You're clutching new derailers not worn out your chains lubed when you go ride. It's all the little things that is sometimes easy to skip will ensure that you have a better experience I mean we all love to go ride or bike. Can you want to have the best. The best experience you can and those hours that you have to ride it. So doing those little things will make your experience a little better and and and yeah, there's there's a lot of information that goes into bike setup and and I'm passionate about it I nerd out on it. It's exciting time disappears when I think about it. But. I think the best thing that people can do is just get out and ride the bike that they have more often like whatever you could think about this all day or what you need to buy or what you need to do to ah to ride more but if you could just put your bike on your bike rack. Go to the trail and ride it that'll probably be the best thing that you can do so hopefully hopefully people resonate with that.

01:04:39.51
jsc175
Yeah, absolutely yeah, cool. No I agree with that as well. Well, thanks again, man appreciate all the in-depth knowledge and for everyone listening we'll put links in the show notes to yeah, all the things that we mentioned. Um, Niko's name is n e k o and it's mulally I get that right.

01:05:02.74
neko
Sounds good. Well thanks a lot for having me on Jeff appreciate it.

01:05:07.84
jsc175
Yeah, cool. Thank you Man talk to you next time.

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